nnr613 ([info]nnr613) wrote,
@ 2005-04-13 18:33:00
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Liberation
Children, awaken from your sleep.
You've lived lives of despair and wretchedness for long enough.
No longer must you stare at the ground in defeat.
Do not allow feelings of laziness or conformity to permeate your will.
These are but elaborate hoaxes of that enemy you've created within yourselves.
You've doubted before, but it is no longer time for this.
It is time to open your eyes and look upon your own skin, and the presence of your body as an expression of your own creator.
You have allowed your free will to backfire, leaving you stranded, with nothing, begging for crumbs, while at your Father's abode a feast awaits you.

No longer.
No longer must you be idle minds to be tossed and turned by the desires of others.
No longer must you weep, no longer must your mourning be heard as outcries from this world.

I will not stand for self-deprecation.
I will not stand for conformity.
I will not stand for slavery.

Allow the fire that burns incessantly within your hearts, that triple flame that gives you life, allow it to burn infinitely, allow it to be the light that guides you, allow it to be the wind that sustains you, and the imbibed drink that supports you.
Give way for your Faith to break your chains and become stairs with which you may ascend to thine Father.


Look within yourselves, the Heavens, and find this Kingdom that has been promised you, for indeed it is at hand.

-J. A. K.
"I AM Liberation."

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[info]speedglow
2005-04-13 11:51 pm UTC (link)
I'm a zombie.

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[info]daystar_eld
2005-04-14 10:03 pm UTC (link)
Maybe some of us don't want to reside in the Kingdom of Heavan, for who know what further troubles and pain we may experience there? And if there is none, then why would we wish to live in perpetual static, for all eternity? Why can we not travel elsewhere, to a place where the rules are not set down and decided for us? Why can we not combine our wishes, travel our own dreams, and build for ourselves a new world... through love and friendship and peace, build for ourselves the Republic of Heaven...

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[info]nnr613
2005-04-15 02:11 am UTC (link)
Your end goal is not bad Max. But your ignorance regarding such a Kingdom does not serve you well.
Experiencing "pain and hardship" in the Kingdom of Heaven would be an extraordinary feat. For no man thirsts in a river.
You must understand that though the things that surround us have frail natures , fluctuating about in no particular patterns, what lies beyond the world of form, what can be said to be real, does not change. It is. That is its sole activity. Therefore, the reality of such a "Kingdom of Heaven", as cryptic as this small axiom is, would not deny its own nature.
The absurdities that cloud your thoughts are but shadows.
Vanquish them.

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[info]daystar_eld
2005-04-15 03:03 am UTC (link)
No matter how constant something may be in reality, without the trappings of form or our perceptions, no one size fits all. To say that there is a realm where no matter who you are, you will be happy in it for all eternity, is absurdity. Eternity is a long time. A really really long time. A man may not thirst in a river, but after awhile, they might wish they did. Unless such a realm or state of being changed from person to person, or over time, it would fail to be what it is thought of as, and if it didn't, it would fail anyway.

In my mind, all worlds exist. There is no limit, no rule, no structure that is required to say, this can be, and this cannot. If the mind can concieve of it, if the spirit can feel it, if the body can be affected by it, then it is just as real as the keyboard which I now type on. It matters not where it comes from; a fiction book or a movie, a madman's ravings or a pothead's hallucination...

Nothing is impossible.

Not if you believe...

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[info]nnr613
2005-04-15 03:14 am UTC (link)
Max, you are trying to justify unhappiness.
If you have been caused unhappiness by external situations, such as possessions, or relationships, or what not, then maybe you have been seeking happiness in the wrong place.

The Kingdom of Heaven, is an aerial thing. It is a state of being, rather than a place or an idea.

Once you truly understand this Principle, beyond the state of the Ego (your own creation) and beyond the state of your uncontrolled emotional body, then you will look upon the face of Happiness and truly understand what the state implies.

I no longer speak of religion, nor of the future. Just like a man that does not believe in time should not try to rationalize eternity.

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[info]daystar_eld
2005-04-15 03:30 am UTC (link)
I don't justify unhappiness: it needs none. It is, and therefor it is necessary. If you don't know unhappiness, you cannot recognize happiness. Wisdom is wisdom no matter who says it:

"There can be no light without darkness, no good without evil, no relief without pain." -Satan

Sure it's justification of his own existence. But it's also true. To say you want to try and abolish evil completely is like an exterminator saying he wants to make cockroaches extinct. Everything is in flux, ebb and flow, all that; there are times of great evil, always with the promise that things will get better, and there are times of great good, with the threat of evil always hovering above. All we can do is fight for the good times to come faster, and hold off the evil as long as we can.

The state of being you speak of is attainable not through any concious decision or method: either you reach it, or you don't, depending on many things beyond your control, and a few within. To say that one is self-actualized is possible, for such a thing is defineable in most cases, and meets a certain criteria. To say that one has reached The Kingdom of Heaven is not. Because everyone has their own heaven; one man's is another's hell. Even state of beings. What you percieve as being happy and understanding of the Principle is not everyone's. Some don't have or don't aim for the same principle, for how can you try for something you don't believe in? How can you acheieve something that does not exist for you? And nothing exists for everyone. I speak not of material things, because these only matter on certain levels. I mean anything. There is not only one spirit world with eternal unchanging truths, because to say that, no matter how you define it, is the same thing all those other damn people say: I'm right, you're wrong. And the second you start saying or thinking that, is the time you are limiting yourself to one train or area of thought, no matter how open or "out there" it is.

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[info]nnr613
2005-04-15 04:17 am UTC (link)
Max, what you say is not far from the truth.
Hermetic Principle of Rhythm and Polarity. It is necessary for one to exist in order for the other to do as well, but just as Gautama explained there needs to be a middle way. a path in between.
The problem is the more extremist choices.
What you are saying is true.
There is no one path for everyone.
However, the end of the path is the same for everyone, no matter what their personal experience in attaining it.
You cannot take comfort in saying that you cannot attain this particular state of being, "enlightenment" if you will, and that it is all defined by some form of "luck".
Though it is no earthly method, verbal irony implied for the more learned, it does depend upon choice. The Truth is that all of the world's verities lie within your reach.
In the pursuit of happiness, and this you cannot deny, all men, no matter in what state of sadism or asceticism pursue happiness, we have an initial choice. Not remembered by most because of the subconscious value of this particular choice.
This choice implies seeking happiness and control within or without.
Take a look around you. The people that surround you go through every measure to try to attain some form of happiness, gratification, and control.
The problem is that all things must begin within oneself, not without.
As the Kybalion says "As Above, So Below." If you cannot attain control within yourself, in your thoughts, words, and actions how do you expect to control what surrounds you? how do you expect to find happiness in the outside if you do not find happiness within your own self? as a state of being on its own?

Its not a matter of the Kingdom of Heaven any more. This allegory is too subtle for the mindset of current times.
The Truth is that, no matter what surrounds you, or its state of existence, real or not, substantial or not, tangible or intangible, and much less your opinion on any of them. All change commences within,, all control commences within, all happiness commences within. No matter what the external situation. This is indisputable, not because it is my "opinion", but because no matter what rationale is applied this remains unchanged.

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[info]daystar_eld
2005-04-15 11:04 pm UTC (link)
I agree with much of what you say, except for one major thing:

What your saying is that it is ultimatley the choice of the person what they become in life, and wether or not they are happy with what they have. But there are things that are not in a person's control that could happen to them, things that change the way they percieve the world, other people, or themselves. And most of the time, these changes are permanent, as they become a part of the subconcious. To say that we have (or had, which means that for some it is too late to ever change) complete choice as to what we become, and how we view the world, is simply untrue. Because although we have free will, others do as well. And their decisions and actions can place you in a situation that is uncontrollable for you, and the result of which is almost always the same in regards to the person. It happens far too many times to be ignored, and is a case where the few exceptions prove the rule.

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[info]nnr613
2005-04-15 11:21 pm UTC (link)
Max, you cannot take comfort in blaming other factors in your life for the way its turned out.
No matter what happens in a person's life, it is all under the scope of their control.
There is no such thing as Chance, or Luck, Sassy.
There is control, on different planes and degrees.
Therefore, all things that happen within your life where caused by you, in their entirety in order to accomplish something greater.
After all, trying to account for some idea of God, why would God give us a mediocre notion of Free Will? if we couldn't do anything we desired with it, then the concept would deny itself.

Do not take comfort on things that are quite frankly bellow you, do not justify yourself because of your inabilities and disillusions.

There are greater things out there if only you got your sights off of your self-imposed limitations and instead focused on the higher path.

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[info]daystar_eld
2005-04-16 12:01 am UTC (link)
*shakes head* I see we have reached the limit of the argument at last then. Herein lies the root of our disagreement:

No matter what happens in a person's life, it is all under the scope of their control.

I do not mean chance or luck when I speak of forces beyond our control. I don't think they *are* chance. I believe that all things serve a purpose.

After all, trying to account for some idea of God, why would God give us a mediocre notion of Free Will? if we couldn't do anything we desired with it, then the concept would deny itself.

I think you are confusing free will and control. Just because we can choose what to do in any given situation, and decide the course of events that follow it, and to a large degree our perception of what occured and future beliefs as a result, does not mean we can control the situations themselves, or the coming of them. If we could, there would be no purpose to any higher power. Almost nothing effects one singular person: if your best friend dies, and you are devestated by it, was it your fault? A result of your actions or thoughts? What, then, of his parents, and other friends? Do they all suffer for your actions? Or did they all play a part in bringing about his death? Karma, when thought of in a microcosmic, action-event level, is not only naive, but illogical and foolish.

This is not really a completely accurate analogy, but think of two equals debating an issue. One believes a new specie of mouse will act a certain way, and the other believes it will act another. The two decide to allow the mouse to live it's life out in their constructed environment, and interact with other mice, and do whatever it wishes, and whatever it needs to survive. But every so often, one of them would interfere with the mouse's life, otherwise it would simply go on and live it's life out staticly, eating, sleeping, mating, so on, without learning anything, or evolving. They set his house on fire, or steer events so that he meets with a rat one day. Just to see what he would do, what he would *choose* to do, for not all mice are exaclty the same, and to help him ascend from his position.

I do not hold any limitations on myself other than those which I know of, and decide to endure for the sake of others. I know what I believe, and I believe it for many reasons and experiences and a combination of the most bizarre and conventional readings and opinions and beliefs. My view of the world, the one I believe is the correct one, and the view which gives me such strength and insight, what provides me with my essential difference, and my "magic", if you will, is one which encompasses and accepts all beliefs, all worlds, all philosophies, to a degree. Because in *my* world, there is every present every possible world, and every possible thought, and none of them fully contradict one another. Everything works together, proving one another, affirming themselves, and all because of one major belief, which I have yet to find in another human being. It's why I am so different, different in a way which puts most people's common, or even the most uncommonm, differences in the shade.

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[info]nnr613
2005-04-16 03:51 am UTC (link)
As you've said Max, this is the end of our conversation.
"Do not cast your pearls at swine." (Forgive the crudeness of its diction.)

Keep doing what you do, and I'll keep at my own.
Someday we'll all meet at the end of the line.

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[info]daystar_eld
2005-04-16 03:54 am UTC (link)
*bow* Until then, then.

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[info]nnr613
2005-04-16 03:55 am UTC (link)
Until then indeed.

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